This still amuses me. Free The LiveJournal Three! Possible because it's late and I'm immresed in my IRA research and well, I'm trying to make sense of it all and it's nice to have things like this to lugh about so there.
Bwahahaha! I know that must have been irritating for Nat, but, really, it's funny that someone would like the story but think it would be better if the very foundation of it were changed.
Draco is definitely far more interesting than a misunderstood slash fan's dream who just needs True Love to bring out the good person hiding inside. He could just be a bully, but he could also be a really good evil mastermind. Or, if he does have doubts about following in his father's footsteps of evil, that should be a cause for serious and well-written angst, not something to be solved with the quick fix of Harry's love.
I know it's silly to ask this of a rather dedicated slasher, but do you know of any places to find (relatively) well-written HP het?
That's exactly it. it's not sa if it was som sort of general bunny, it was really only fitting for Harry and Draco. And it'd be much funnier if it wasn't the prevalen attitude in the fandom: "Why would you waste a perfectly good story on Harry/Ron when Harry obviously belongs with Draco?"
For me, part of what made the books interesting has always been the question of wether Draco will just become a DE because his father was, or if he'll actually decide to join, of if he'll decide that Voldie coming into power is going to destroy a lot of things and then what's he (Draco) going toconquer/buy/whatever?
Hm. I did read some het in this fandom, but the only thing that comes to mind atm is Cassandra Claire's Draco Dormiens and sequels, but a) I don't know where that's located these days, and b) large chunks of that are plagiarised.
I can see Draco sort of hanging around the fringes of evil without really becoming his father--semi-rebellious!Draco as it were. I can also see him doing exactly what his father has done because that's what he's been taught to do. Incidentally, when you first read the books and you saw Draco in your head, what color hair did he have?
I'm really interested in non-Hermione het. I like Hermione and all, but I don't really want to think about her having sex. I want McGonagall het, or Weasley twins het, or Snape het.
Bit late in the day for asking this, I know, but what was that whole Cassandra Claire thing all about? Were the stories (which I've never read) plagiarized, or did she write a parody/pastiche and have someone accuse her of plagiarism because of it? (As someone who has quite a few pastiches to her name, I'm understandably interested in the answer to *that* question.) All I recall is a debate in which the definition of plagiarism was very definitively not settled.
Well, what I remembre from it (and while I wasn't deeply enough into it to be personally hurt, I was in touch with pepole who were, so I think I got most of it right) was the following.
Cassandra Claire, BNF in HP het. Wrote a trilogy of Really Long Stories. (Harry/Hermione and Hermione/Draco, IIRC.) She, like most of HP fandom, had her stories up at ff.net. Someone apparently contacted the ff.net people accusing CC of plagiarism. The ff.net people investigated, and found at least one instance where CC'd lifted a substantial chunk of text almost directly (names and eye and hair colours changed) from a book.
CC got TOSsed off ff.net for plagiarism. The fandom is outraged at the jealous ff.nte people who couldn't stand to have the great, the talented CC on their site and wanted to keep hre fic down. The plagiarism wasn't really denied, but cmopletely downplayed. I've seen people literally say "Yes, she plagiarised, but she should be forgiven, because she's a talented writer!"
There's more info here, by someone much more together than I am at this hour.
Uh, why would a "great writer" have to steal anything from anyone? Further proof that this fandom is dominated by emotionally overwrought thirteen-year-olds, and not very bright ones at that. :-p
BTW, is it worth it, having an ff.net account? Signed up for one but don't know if I want the constant stream of "Those characters are not gay you fukin fagit!" pieces of "feedback"...
Hey... (I have a very nifty stat thingy... I check it often... Interesting thread going on btw...)(*gr* tenth time to try to post.)
Not sure if in the steal thing it's clear, but there are large segments of the Harry Potter fandom (which contain the more famous authors like Cassandra Claire and Rhysenn and I believe Heidi Tandy who all left in protest of Cassie being kicked off while saying on list that they wrote in similar styles to Cassie so they feared being booted next.) who believe in the "pick-and-choose" method of writing to quote some one on the Fandom Ethical and Legal Discussion Board (http://www.voy.com/36422/). This style of writing tends to be focused around giving "tributes" to other writers by incorporating their work verbatim into your story and having the reader try to guess where. IE Often there is no citation, improper citation or the citation is lacking and not phyically on the story.
In the case of Cassandra Claire, the story is that some person reported her to the staff of FanFiction.Net and included page # from the book, the author name, the book title and than showed the staff Cassie's work, the "citation" and matched up the passages. Cassie had several pages (Two from the original plagiarism accusation submitted) matching verbatim that story except for basic changes such as eye color, and names. The citation was listed as an author she couldn't remember and than she cited the WRONG book.
The person who submitted the work also offered to find other passages that she knew Cassie and lifted from. This wasn't really needed because the evidence was so heavy in those two pages from what I understand. The person who submitted the original complaint and I started e-mailing (And I've since fallen out of contact because I've been lazy and busy with real life.) and she showed me several more pages nearly verbatim that were taken from the book which Cassie cited as the wrong book with no author. The person also sent me lines of dailogue from various shows that Cassie had inserted into her stories. These lines were from such shows as Red Dwarf and Buffy: The Vampire Slayer. They wweren't just one or two lines. They were whole seens of dialogue.
By the time I get that, Cassie is already offed from FanFiction.Net and her friends our howling and worried because they do this too. At this point, enter Pamela Dean... the professional author from whom Cassandra Claire "tributed" her work too. Pamela Dean didn't think Cassie's work was a tribute, didn't think the citation, hell any citation was good enough for that. If I recall correctly and I am reasonably sure I do, Pamela Dean felt that even with a proper citation on Cassie's part, that was still ahem boys and girls and fans of Cassie, still plagiarism. At this point, Pamela Dean is now in contact with two members of FanFiction.Net's staff.
And there are people on Cassie's list who think Cassie should just e-mail Pamela Dean and ask permission so that she can be put back on FanFiction.Net. Cassie doesn't want to be put back on FanFiction.net (I'm not her but this is based on her posts to Cassie & Rhysenn and PoU where she says exactly that.) but as their is a rumor out there (huh, who started that?) that Pamela Dean knows and she isn't happy... Well needles to say, Cassie contacts Pamela Dean. (This is some what after FanFiction.Net and others have e-mailed her with the decidedly un-Cassie favored view.) Pamela Dean apparently decides to let her agent handle this as this is a MAJOR NO NO.
Time goes by (and my rant on plagiarism gets lots of hits, the venting stops and Cassie continues her "tributes"), and in November, months and months after this all happened, Cassie posts to some message board that she now has permission to have PD's sections in her stories. (Which, in my mind at least, still a plagiarist makes her as she should have had permission BEFORE hand, she still writes those passages using other people's stuff, and the citation hasn't changed.)
Coincidently, Pamela Dean posts to I believe rec.arts.sf.writing that she understands problems with copyright infringement as she had to deal with people who didn't understand it recently either.
Thanks for the blow-by-blow. [shakes head in disgust] Well, after hearing that I don't ever want to hear another ficcer whining about TPTB persecution, not that sort anyway. Your essay was one hundred percent correct, and if I were Pamela Dean I'd be cease-and-desisting like there's no tomorrow. (Not to mention that as a lawyer myself I get more than slightly twitchy when people just IGNORE BLATANT EVIDENCE in favor of their *feelings,* but that's my personal issues talking.)
Did I mention this fandom seems to be dominated by emotionally overwrought thirteen-year-olds(mentally speaking, anyway)? Makes me glad I keep my non-pick-and-choose stuff away from them and theirs.
when people just IGNORE BLATANT EVIDENCE in favor of their *feelings,*
This is the problem I have with a lot of fandom debates, especially about RPS. People let their emotions overrun their logical minds, and that's just not something I can handle. It irritates me, and well, I've adapted the attitude that when meotions overrun brains, the argument is lost.
I wouldn't mind the emotions at all... It's why when I say stuff about RPS myself, I always temper it with "This is how I feel." My feelings aren't fact and don't apply to the whole wide world.
The Cassandra Claire thing and a lot of other stuff in fandom boils down to "I feel this way so everyone else must feel the same way." IE I can tribute people and because I would be flattered that some one did that to me, it's okay.
Of course, they don't phrase it that way... the phrase it as fact IE It's a tribute and no one gets hurt so it is okay. If you present evidence, it still doesn't matter to them most of the time becaue it contradicts their feelings, so facts are wrong.
It's why, while I acknowledge there is wiggle room for RPS and fan fiction, I myself wouldn't tolerate either based on me or mine and I'd probably seek legal recourse.
I'm just sick and tired of them bitching about Warner Brothers going after slashers. I am probably out of the loop, but have they done anything more than say stuff in those two or three articles?
I just can't see that as persecution at all. I see it as ass covering on their part.
I got a little nervous when I saw the original article/s, but I've been watching the situation and thus far all they said was 1) they weren't pleased (well, they never are), 2) they were "exploring their legal options" and 3) they were somewhat hesitant to go after HP slash because that might actually backfire to give it an even more prominent online profile. As far as I can tell, nobody's been C&D-ed or shut down yet--there's always a chance of it, but I honestly doubt it's going to happen unless some slasher out there does something really foolish, like say *inform* TPTB or JK Rowling or some of the actors involved of exactly what they're writing. (Which, as we all know--the naivete of people never to be underestimated--has happened in more than one fandom. Ach.)
I personally am far less nervous about the Warner Brothers legal team than I am of the self-appointed "stamp out Internet child porn" crowd. Considering that many slashers themselves dismiss HP slash as pedophilic, well, not too much of a support network there if someone ends up on the chopping block. Cross fingers, low profile.
but than again, I have my moments of cruelty and I was hoping the people who said Cassie was not a plagiarist because of whatever (one such being that they all do it so not wrong)and banned me from various Harry Potter lists where I was once welcome... Pettiness. (Moments of pettiness.)
But in all honesty, I didn't think anything would happen. I thought it served two functions: it pacified parents and Christian elements who might have found this material and been offended by it or used it as justification to burn Harry Potter books. I think it also was an attempt to probably help protect their trademarks by saying it is out there and they don't tolerate it. (Because if they don't say that sort of thing, than they risk loosing potentially their trademark which is something that I believe Kleenex and Zipper lost because of failure to protect their trademarks.)
Heh, it's not just the "stamp out Internet child porn" people who are a problem. I believe it was Salon.com who did an article a while back on the subject and they said that the porn industry was supporting this crusade because the casual acceptance of this material is hurting their profits. Go figure.
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
From:
no subject
Draco is definitely far more interesting than a misunderstood slash fan's dream who just needs True Love to bring out the good person hiding inside. He could just be a bully, but he could also be a really good evil mastermind. Or, if he does have doubts about following in his father's footsteps of evil, that should be a cause for serious and well-written angst, not something to be solved with the quick fix of Harry's love.
I know it's silly to ask this of a rather dedicated slasher, but do you know of any places to find (relatively) well-written HP het?
From:
Re:
For me, part of what made the books interesting has always been the question of wether Draco will just become a DE because his father was, or if he'll actually decide to join, of if he'll decide that Voldie coming into power is going to destroy a lot of things and then what's he (Draco) going toconquer/buy/whatever?
Hm. I did read some het in this fandom, but the only thing that comes to mind atm is Cassandra Claire's Draco Dormiens and sequels, but a) I don't know where that's located these days, and b) large chunks of that are plagiarised.
I'll see what i can dig back up, though.
From:
no subject
I'm really interested in non-Hermione het. I like Hermione and all, but I don't really want to think about her having sex. I want McGonagall het, or Weasley twins het, or Snape het.
From:
no subject
From:
Re:
Cassandra Claire, BNF in HP het. Wrote a trilogy of Really Long Stories. (Harry/Hermione and Hermione/Draco, IIRC.) She, like most of HP fandom, had her stories up at ff.net. Someone apparently contacted the ff.net people accusing CC of plagiarism. The ff.net people investigated, and found at least one instance where CC'd lifted a substantial chunk of text almost directly (names and eye and hair colours changed) from a book.
CC got TOSsed off ff.net for plagiarism. The fandom is outraged at the jealous ff.nte people who couldn't stand to have the great, the talented CC on their site and wanted to keep hre fic down. The plagiarism wasn't really denied, but cmopletely downplayed. I've seen people literally say "Yes, she plagiarised, but she should be forgiven, because she's a talented writer!"
There's more info here, by someone much more together than I am at this hour.
From:
Re:
BTW, is it worth it, having an ff.net account? Signed up for one but don't know if I want the constant stream of "Those characters are not gay you fukin fagit!" pieces of "feedback"...
From:
Link it and I will come (if I don't kill LJ first.)
Not sure if in the steal thing it's clear, but there are large segments of the Harry Potter fandom (which contain the more famous authors like Cassandra Claire and Rhysenn and I believe Heidi Tandy who all left in protest of Cassie being kicked off while saying on list that they wrote in similar styles to Cassie so they feared being booted next.) who believe in the "pick-and-choose" method of writing to quote some one on the Fandom Ethical and Legal Discussion Board (http://www.voy.com/36422/). This style of writing tends to be focused around giving "tributes" to other writers by incorporating their work verbatim into your story and having the reader try to guess where. IE Often there is no citation, improper citation or the citation is lacking and not phyically on the story.
In the case of Cassandra Claire, the story is that some person reported her to the staff of FanFiction.Net and included page # from the book, the author name, the book title and than showed the staff Cassie's work, the "citation" and matched up the passages. Cassie had several pages (Two from the original plagiarism accusation submitted) matching verbatim that story except for basic changes such as eye color, and names. The citation was listed as an author she couldn't remember and than she cited the WRONG book.
The person who submitted the work also offered to find other passages that she knew Cassie and lifted from. This wasn't really needed because the evidence was so heavy in those two pages from what I understand. The person who submitted the original complaint and I started e-mailing (And I've since fallen out of contact because I've been lazy and busy with real life.) and she showed me several more pages nearly verbatim that were taken from the book which Cassie cited as the wrong book with no author. The person also sent me lines of dailogue from various shows that Cassie had inserted into her stories. These lines were from such shows as Red Dwarf and Buffy: The Vampire Slayer. They wweren't just one or two lines. They were whole seens of dialogue.
From:
Link it and I will come (if I don't kill LJ first.) (part two)
By the time I get that, Cassie is already offed from FanFiction.Net and her friends our howling and worried because they do this too. At this point, enter Pamela Dean... the professional author from whom Cassandra Claire "tributed" her work too. Pamela Dean didn't think Cassie's work was a tribute, didn't think the citation, hell any citation was good enough for that. If I recall correctly and I am reasonably sure I do, Pamela Dean felt that even with a proper citation on Cassie's part, that was still ahem boys and girls and fans of Cassie, still plagiarism. At this point, Pamela Dean is now in contact with two members of FanFiction.Net's staff.
And there are people on Cassie's list who think Cassie should just e-mail Pamela Dean and ask permission so that she can be put back on FanFiction.Net. Cassie doesn't want to be put back on FanFiction.net (I'm not her but this is based on her posts to Cassie & Rhysenn and PoU where she says exactly that.) but as their is a rumor out there (huh, who started that?) that Pamela Dean knows and she isn't happy... Well needles to say, Cassie contacts Pamela Dean. (This is some what after FanFiction.Net and others have e-mailed her with the decidedly un-Cassie favored view.) Pamela Dean apparently decides to let her agent handle this as this is a MAJOR NO NO.
Time goes by (and my rant on plagiarism gets lots of hits, the venting stops and Cassie continues her "tributes"), and in November, months and months after this all happened, Cassie posts to some message board that she now has permission to have PD's sections in her stories. (Which, in my mind at least, still a plagiarist makes her as she should have had permission BEFORE hand, she still writes those passages using other people's stuff, and the citation hasn't changed.)
Coincidently, Pamela Dean posts to I believe rec.arts.sf.writing that she understands problems with copyright infringement as she had to deal with people who didn't understand it recently either.
Anyway, that is the story.
From:
Re: Link it and I will come (if I don't kill LJ first.) (part two)
Did I mention this fandom seems to be dominated by emotionally overwrought thirteen-year-olds(mentally speaking, anyway)? Makes me glad I keep my non-pick-and-choose stuff away from them and theirs.
From:
Re: Link it and I will come (if I don't kill LJ first.) (part two)
This is the problem I have with a lot of fandom debates, especially about RPS. People let their emotions overrun their logical minds, and that's just not something I can handle. It irritates me, and well, I've adapted the attitude that when meotions overrun brains, the argument is lost.
But then, I'm a snob. :)
From:
Wouldn't mind the emotions
The Cassandra Claire thing and a lot of other stuff in fandom boils down to "I feel this way so everyone else must feel the same way." IE I can tribute people and because I would be flattered that some one did that to me, it's okay.
Of course, they don't phrase it that way... the phrase it as fact IE It's a tribute and no one gets hurt so it is okay. If you present evidence, it still doesn't matter to them most of the time becaue it contradicts their feelings, so facts are wrong.
It's why, while I acknowledge there is wiggle room for RPS and fan fiction, I myself wouldn't tolerate either based on me or mine and I'd probably seek legal recourse.
From:
Re: Wouldn't mind the emotions
From:
Yeah
I just can't see that as persecution at all. I see it as ass covering on their part.
From:
Re: Yeah
I personally am far less nervous about the Warner Brothers legal team than I am of the self-appointed "stamp out Internet child porn" crowd. Considering that many slashers themselves dismiss HP slash as pedophilic, well, not too much of a support network there if someone ends up on the chopping block. Cross fingers, low profile.
From:
not me
But in all honesty, I didn't think anything would happen. I thought it served two functions: it pacified parents and Christian elements who might have found this material and been offended by it or used it as justification to burn Harry Potter books. I think it also was an attempt to probably help protect their trademarks by saying it is out there and they don't tolerate it. (Because if they don't say that sort of thing, than they risk loosing potentially their trademark which is something that I believe Kleenex and Zipper lost because of failure to protect their trademarks.)
Heh, it's not just the "stamp out Internet child porn" people who are a problem. I believe it was Salon.com who did an article a while back on the subject and they said that the porn industry was supporting this crusade because the casual acceptance of this material is hurting their profits. Go figure.
From:
Pamela Dean
From:
Can't remember
*kicks dead computer*
From:
Re: Can't remember