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femgeek: To me, it's mostly that I can't find any female character that interests me enough; I mean, the two main shows for f/f slash are Xena and Buffy. Xena (and Herc) I don't like as shows, because of this whole AncientMythology!snob thing I have going on. Buffy? I like Cordy, and Faith, and Willow. Neither of these three are really slashy with one another. Tara and Anya I've not seen enough of to like or dislike. Joyce I hate with a fiery passion, but that's mostly me and my trauma's re: Faith, Hope and Trick. Buffy ... I know, it's "trendy" to not like her, but. I just don't. She doesn't hit me where it hurts, so to speak. She's a Buffy Sue, IMO.
So, yeah. I'll prolly come up with a more in-depth thingamajig when I've slept and my stomach isn't a big ball of tightness and my brain isn't being eaten by teenaged muses and my catisn't nibbling at my hand, but my main problem with f/f slash is basically that I'm not interested in most of the women I see on tv or in the movies, let lone in their relationships.
This is actually something I was conna babble about some time soon -- the lack of female charactres (and relationshpis!) I can relate to in tv shows, movies and books.
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Yeah. I'm just ranomly talking.
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It's really sad, isn't it?
I don't get what it is with people disliking the main characters in fandoms (it's not even close to only Buffy, it happens in lots that I know of, and probably more that I don't), I can't watch a show with a main character that I don't like or can't at least tolerate.
Of course, we know what it is. It's the male-centricity of writers and other people in charge of TV and movies.
I was thinking the other day when I was writing, that I had to turn to RPFic to find a character who I could honestly write as a competent, interesting, fully rounded human being and not be told that I was writing uncanonically.
Isn't that a sad reflection on this subject?
I may be exaggerating slightly, there are some movie characters who it may be possible to do it with, but still, it's very rare.
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Re: It's really sad, isn't it?
But books? Yeah. I'm being driven towards non-fic (okay, so research for writing is the main reason, but still) because I'm tired of women in books always being either Damsel In Distress or Tough Heroine Who Really Wants The Love Of The/A Hero And Turns into A 12-yo Girl When He Loves Her Back.
Um, yes, tangent there. My point was, there are v. v. few female characters out there whom I identify with in the sense of getting "into" her point of view and living the adventure through her. I think Stephen King is one of the only writers who consistently write interesting female characters, as is JKR, and a few people I'm forgetting. (Oh! The guy who writes the Inspecor Morse novels. He's quite good at writing (supporting) female characters.)
More importantly from a slash POV, there are preciously few occasions when there are multiple interesting female characters who also have a relationship intense/interesting enough that I'd want to slash them. Female friendships are just ... mostly either nonexistant, or too ... "girly" for me.
Let me try to explain that. One fo the reasons I prefer male friends to female friends, in general, is because I'm v. physical in my friendships. I like to hug people, but I also tend to slap people when they're teasing me, and push and tickle and that sort of thing. In my experience, most women/girls don't like that. Basically, the way most female friendships are portrayed, they seem to be about "sharing" and talking about stuff rather than about bonding the way most of mine are, so it's hard for me to relate to that and to really "feel" their friendship, their feelings for each other.
And this is quite possibly my gender issues again, but well. I don't know if it is, really. Is it? In the Venus-Mars disechtomy, I am most definitely from Mars, but isn't that whole dysechtomy a product of society? And if it is, does that mean the female friendships I see on TV and read about are just a man's idea of what female friendship is (thus making it hard/impossible for me to believe they're real, cause, well, they're not)?
I think I managed to wander quite a bit off-topic there. I'll shut up now.
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Re: It's really sad, isn't it?
Non-fic...the last four books I bought were biographies. Okay, biographies of people I do/want to write RPS about (Keanu Reeves, Humphrey Bogart, Russell Crowe and Heath Ledger (maybe on Heath, not sure about RPS yet, but he is growing on me)).
There are interesting female characters out there, but most of the books I read are either romance novels or TV/movie tie-ins these days, except for the bios.
Oh, and the mystery novel I got out because it was *cough* set in a boys' school and haven't read yet.
I don't think there are any female characters I can think of who do that. Oh, except Jackie Collins', but she's not for everyone. Though she at least has gay characters who are interesting and fully rounded, and I still think she's one of the few truly mainstream authors (mainstream = my mum reads it) who does that. And I'm all for more tolerance of gay characters. Sometimes her main characters are the gay ones.
I don't read Stephen King. It scares me, and after seeing The Others, my scariness quotient for the year has been reached (and I mean 2002, not this year *shudder*). JKR does a good job, generally. Don't read Inspector Morse, either. Well, except for one slash story in a zine...not bad, either.
Oh, yes. ONE interesting female is rare enough, but two, with an interesting relationship that can be slashed is as rare as the proverbial hens' teeth.
It's not just you. I'm not as physical as you are in RL friendships, but often the ones in books/movies/TV aren't like the RL ones I have. It's like there's a...distance between the on-screen people, and it's probably because in a lot of cases the women aren't friends and it comes across in character. It's odd that it doesn't tend to as much with men, though I think in a couple of cases it has (I'm reminded of Oliver Reed in Gladiator discussing Richard Harris's character. Reed and Harris did not get along in RL, and it's so obvious from Reed's delivery of the lines when he's telling Maximus about his once being a gladiator.
As for my closest RL friendships - well, minus the slash thing, they're a lot like my net friendships. I spent half an hour the other week talking about how sexy Joaquin Phoenix is with my oldest friend and on Friday my friend Margret and I were discussing the merits of Ben, Matt and Owen Wilson. Fun :). I mean, we talk about other stuff, but it's not like the TV/movies/book portrayal.
I'm not sure if it's the dichotomy, or not. Though you might have a point with the male view of female friendships.
Which might be why, conversely, that it's easier to slash the few female friendships in RPS, because they do seem real.
Though there are only three I can think of that hold any interest for me, and one's only as a reader.
Christina/Britney. I do see it, but I couldn't write it.
Gwyneth/Drew Barrymore. Gwyneth talks a lot about her friendship with Drew in interviews. It's pretty similar, though not as prolific, to the Matt/Ben thing.
Alicia Silverstone/Liv Tyler. Mostly through what I've heard about the Crazy vid and some comments Alicia made about relationships and sex in an interview I saw. It didn't say anything specifically about Liv, but she seemed to not be opposed to the idea of being with a woman.
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Re: It's really sad, isn't it?
Yep, more or less the same here. I read either non-fic, or SF/fantasy carefully selected on the grounds of recc's by fellow slashers, or because I can be fairly sure on the basis ofrecc's or whatever that there will be absolutely NO Damsels In Distress, or anything like that.
Usually, this means there's nary a female character in the book at all, which is sad, but it's that or spend $15 on a book only to then throw it across the room forcefully after the first chapter.
Heh. Funny you should mention that. Last month's Mad Magazine had a thing on Things You'll Never See On TV, and one of the first things they listed was "non stereotypical gay characters". If even mad Magazine notices it ...
So, yeah, Jackie Collins isn't quite my fare (more becuase of her contemporariness than anything else, really. I'm not that fond of contemporary fiction. Give me SF, fantasy or historical fiction any day. :/), but I'm glad at least one author is treating us as normal human beings.
It's one of the things that kind of irk me about most gay fiction as well. Ninety percent of it seems to be about coming out and the angst related to that, when all I want to read is a love story about two guys. (This may have to do with the fact that my own coming-out was a bit of a non-event, so I cna't relate completely to the horror it is for most people.)
Hehehe. I'd reccommend some of his fantasy stuff, except that, too, is quite frightening. ^_^ I'm not too fond of his horror stuff anymore, but I love the rest. And like I said, his female characters give me hope for the next generation of writers.
And my problem with the three friendships you've listed is that I can't really "see" Brit/Christina, and the others are actors and I'm not that much into actorslash anymore. I like musicians, and how many interesting female musicians are there who've been in a band together for a considerable amount of time?
(I refuse to contemplate Spice Girls slash.)
(Oh! Courtney Love/Mellisa Auf Del Mar! I could see that.)
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Re: It's really sad, isn't it?
Oh, I hate Damsels In Distress. No matter what the fic. Unless she get out just as the guy rides up and asks him what took him so long (I did read one like that once, it was so funny).
throw it across the room forcefully after the first chapter.
Not a good idea.
I can understand that. She does a great job. For example, in one book, one of the main characters is a lesbian Native American PI. She's the second most important female character in the book and about the fourth overall.
It's one of the things that kind of irk me about most gay fiction as well. Ninety percent of it seems to be about coming out and the angst related to that, when all I want to read is a love story about two guys.
I haven't really read enough gay fiction to compare, but it sounds frustrating. That's what I'd want to see if I bought it.
Hehehe. I'd reccommend some of his fantasy stuff, except that, too, is quite frightening. ^_^
Actually, I'd like to try it, but I can't seem to find the first one, and I won't read series out of order, ever since the one where I managed to read the fifth one first and got really confuzzled when I went back to the first one.
And my problem with the three friendships you've listed is that I can't really "see" Brit/Christina, and the others are actors and I'm not that much into actorslash anymore.
Well, they're the only ones I can think of.
I hope it's going to be okay to submit actor stuff for the zine.
I like musicians, and how many interesting female musicians are there who've been in a band together for a considerable amount of time?
Michelle Phillips and the other woman (women?) in The Mamas & The Papas?
Stevie Nicks and Christine McVie?
Not that she's been in a band with anyone that I know of, but Bonnie Tyler slash would be nice.
(I refuse to contemplate Spice Girls slash.)
*shudder* Ditto.
(Oh! Courtney Love/Mellisa Auf Del Mar! I could see that.)
Er...who? Not Courtney. Was she in Hole?
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Re: It's really sad, isn't it?
Do you remember what book this was? I'd like to read it.
It is. And it's not that I don't like angst, it's just that I'd like some variety in my angst, ta. Most gay fiction I've read seems to go along the lines of Boy Meets Boy, Boy Falls In Love With Boy, Boy Hides Crush From Boy Because He's In The Closet, Boy Comes Out (or occasionally, Boy Stays In Closet.)
Boring.
I own books one and four in the DT series. E me your addy and I'll send you the first one on a loan. :)
Oh, yeah, no problem. Just saying I'm not personally that much into it anymore.
Unless my memory's screwed up again, Melissa was the bassist in Hole. There's a picture of her and Jason (Newsted).
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Re: It's really sad, isn't it?
Not offhand. I remember it was a romance novel, though.
Speaking of romance novels, I'm reading one with a gay couple as supporting characters. Not only that, the heroine is the beard for one of them, and he's being blackmailed over his secret (he's in sports) and she's also been threatened. I'm only a bit into it, but I'll bet that the blackmailer will turn out to be an ex-lover of one of the couple.
And I can't get over how close that is to some RPS storylines! Except the guys would be the leads in the RPS story. But still.
It is. And it's not that I don't like angst, it's just that I'd like some variety in my angst, ta.
Ditto.
I own books one and four in the DT series. E me your addy and I'll send you the first one on a loan. :)
I have one more possible source to check, because I've been too lazy/busy reading other stuff to do, but if they don't have it, I will, and thank you.
Oh, yeah, no problem. Just saying I'm not personally that much into it anymore.
Oh, good. Besides, I'm getting increasingly convinced it'll be incest (Ben/Casey or River/Joaquin). Don't know why, I just like the idea.
Unless my memory's screwed up again, Melissa was the bassist in Hole. There's a picture of her and Jason (Newsted).
Oh, okay. Hmmmm, possible het bunny? The funny thing is, I'd've known it was that Jason without you saying.
Though my Jason has a thing for Leonardo DiCaprio for some reason.
I think from some ancient metslash discussion