Tangent

[bubosquared]

I was gonna post this as a comment in Ruth's journal, but then the server went offline and now I have nothing better to do than sit here and type in my LJ thingie.

Now I, personally, am not bothered by being addressed as a 'guy', but then I've always felt 'one of the guys'. But then, Ruth doesn't have my gender identity issues, so if she refuses to be a guy, I'll do my best not to address her as one. [Note how I said I'll do my best. I know I'll often slip. Feel free to cough loudly when such is the case.]

Aside: I spent at least 15 minutes trying to figure out how to call the chatgirls then, because "y'all" - I've used it, and it made me slap my head every time I cought myself at it - is just far too American for me. Yes, I'm a language-snob. I'am fully aware of this.

Lastly, Ruth, if you don't want to be seen as a 'girl', I'll do my best not to call you one, but I am a girl, and I'd like to have the right to identify as one, thanks. You made a good point about the 'guys' thing, but I personally don't see the harm in identifying as a girl even though I'm 20. I am not a woman. I'm a girl.

Comments

gendered language and gendered realities

[rsadelle]

1. If you choose to take on a male gendered identity and be "one of the guys," that's your choice, but the point is that "guys" is a gendered term, not a generic one. When you use "guys" to mean everyone, male and female, you make women invisible and reinforce the idea that male is normal.

2. Girls are children. If you're a girl, then someone else needs to take care of you and be in control of your life. If you're a girl, then your parents have the right to tell you when to go to bed and how much time you can spend on the Internet, because only adults, grown-up women and men, have the right to and the capability of making those kinds of decisions for ourselves.

Re: gendered language and gendered realities

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

1. Maybe. I mean, yeah, intelectually I know you're right, but I can't bring myself to care about it. I'm not that feminist. I'll fight for concrete, tangible rights for women, but this ... I'm not saying it's not important, I'm just saying it's not on my priorities list. [But then, neither are a lot of other important things.]

   Also, I don't think this is a winnable fight. [Wow, witness my incredible vocabulary.] I think in the end, 'guys' will just become a generic, non-gender-specific noun, and people won't even consider it to be making women invisible.

   And I don't identify as male. I identify as non-gendered. Or maybe bi-gendered. So maybe that's [part of] the problem I can't empathise with you on this.

2. According to M-W online, a girl is "a young unmarried female person," which I am. 'Adult' means "having attained the normal peak of natural growth and development," which I haven't. Though I can and want to take responsability of my own life, I don't feel 'fully developped' at all. I have a lot of growing to do, in every possible way - well, except physically. That's why I identify as 'girl' and not as 'woman', which to me also bears a 'subtext' of motherhood, of settling down, of ... nurturing.

Re: gendered language and gendered realities

[(Anonymous)]

1. Ruth, you're assuming that a word as used alone means the same as when it's used as part of a phrase. Now, I don't know if it's a regional difference or if language has shifted in the last 10 years or not (anyone else in upstate NY in the late 80's?), but to me the phrase 'you guys' is as gender neutral as 'y'all', while the words 'guy' or 'guys' in any other context is not. Now, I'm living where "y'all" is used instead of 'you guys', so maybe language has shifted back to make it more gendered than it was. But I think 'you guys' can be gender neutral, even if it isn't currently.

It is possible for seemingly contradictory co-meanings to co-exist. Just think about the phrases 'I could care less' and 'I couldn't care less'. Literally, they don't mean the same thing, but they're colloquial usage is interchangeable.

2. Girls aren't necessarily children, they're also adolescents and young women. And your railing against the usage of 'girl' seems to stem in part from an unexamined assumption that there isn't a comparable use of the word 'boy'. I think it's fair to say that in informal speech, you find 'boy' used to refer to men in the same way as 'girl' refers to women. (Although, I admit that my perspective is filtered through African-American speech patterns, and maybe that isn't as true for other groups of anglophones.) Anyway, the use of the word 'girl' is like a dimunitive in this case, and a diminutive isn't prima facie bad.

WitchQueen (http://www.slashx-files.com/blog/)

That's a damn good song.

[zero3kid.livejournal.com]

Sweet Home Alabama, RAAAAAWWWWK!!

Anyway. Identity and such. No, there's nothing wrong with being one of the guys, and as a lady with no gender identity issues, I can be a guy with a straight face and a clear conscience. In fact, it's being singled out ("Hey guys, and Jennifer, check this out!" etc.) is what gets to me...

Being a girl is fine, being a woman isn't half-bad either (although I'm a little young, 19). I'd prefer to be called a lady, but nobody calls anybody else that anymore...oh, well.

Y'all...even though I'm not from the south, and am intelligent and educated, sometimes I can't help myself and I have to talk like I was born in a barn. Language snob I am not. ^_^

Damn the server!

Re: That's a damn good song.

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I'd not even thought about that, but you're right. I, too, dislike being singled out si;ply because I'm a girl.

And I have he same thing in Dutch [my mother tongue], that urge to talk like I'm from somewhere I've barely even been. Oddness est, ne?