HP-related discussion-y ramblings.

[bubosquared]

(Note to the general public: Sae and I have been having this discussion for a long time. I'm collecting various threads in here. Sources are here and here. Discussion won't make much sense unless you read those.)

[*g* Sorry for all the titling / title changing, I'm just trying to stay on top of all the various threads.]

That's okay. I figured I'd group all the threads in a fresh one, so there's less confusion. ^_^

Lucius: Yes, what you said. I think that is a very precise description of what Draco feels for his father. And if he is to be confronted with the reality of being a DE, it will be through his father, no doubt.

*nodnodnod* Draco's admiration for his father is very logical, actually. His whole life, Lucius has been the Draco's only/biggest role model. I think old wizard families are rather patriarchal, and Draco strikes me as an only child, so there are no older brothers be could look up to.

I also think Lucius would deliverately weed out any other male influence in Draco's life, in order to keep his influence on his son as strong as possible. I'm not saying Lucius doesn't love Draco, but he's bound to have plans for his only son, and I don't think a Malfoy would let anything stand in the way of his plans.

I can't quote it at you now, but there's this one scene in GoF where someone [Ron, I think] insults D's mother, and D does what we've never seen him before, he tries to go at Ron with his bare hands.

Hm. Somehow, that strikes me as a matter of honour rather than hurt. (Oooh, chivalrous!Draco. Nice, especially accompanied by swordfighting!Draco, for some reason. Wow.) But you could be right, of course.

I don't know if JKR's planning to expand on that, but [if I did remember it correctly] I do believe that she showed us this for a reason - maybe because of some future development involving Narcissa.

Such as? Inquiring mind wants to pick yours. ^_^

<snip of much sense-making>

Yeah. What you said.

And as I said [or you said?], Draco needs something to be happening to someone - either himself or someone who's important to him. Lucius might be involved, but he won't be the one things are happening to - if anything, he'll be the agressor. And I just don't believe that his father hurting a random person would be enough to wake D up. It might shake him, but not thoroughly enough. That leaves Narcissa as the one to get hurt, since she's the only other person [that we know of] that means something to him.

Hm. But there are other people in the world that people 'important' to Draco and 'random people'. Draco may not like, say, Neville, but he knows him, has been in to school with him, etc. Lucius killing Nevill would not hurt Draco the way Narcissa's death would, but I do think it'd hit home to him that these are real people his Dad's killing, with real blood, with people who care for them.

Also, I'm wondering if maybe it wouldn't be more effective if someone else did the actual killing, while Lucius stood by passively. Yes? No?

I'm thinking of Remus's not turning into a wolf until the moonlight hits him, for example.

That could just be JKR's version of a werewolf, mind. There's so many different versions of them, it's hard to keep track.

(I'd been thinking serious as far as D and H go and throwing in some fun by overexaggerating Ron's DramaQueen-ness ... hmm ...)(<- having that plot? problem again. But will give it some thought.)

Yay! BTW, it was Hagrid who said "Every wizard, etc." not Ron.

I know. In a way, I suppose the DT series wouldn't have to be finished ... not as much as HP does. Make sense?

Yes. I think it's because Harry's quest, to kill Voldie, is seomthing that has to happen for the story to be comlplete. Roland, however, could very well be forever trying to get to his mysterious Black Tower, and I'd not feel cheated out of a proper resolution, because this isn't a conflict that needs resolving.

Well. Do you think [Snape]'s going to go back to V. in the next book, as an agent for Dumbledore? That was hinted at at the end of GoF ...

I was always under the impression that was what Dumbledore implied, yes. In fact, it wasn't until I got on discussion lists that it occured to me he may have implied something else. I hope we'll hear about Snape's adventures with Voldie in Book 5. I may not like Snape, but he interests me.

Well, the existence of Snape shows that she has given thought to the whole 'shades of grey' thing. And I just don't think that he'll stay the one 'twilight' person in a world of black and white.

*nodnodnod* It seems unlikely that she'd keep it that way, yes. This is where the whole Through Harry's Eyes thing comes in. Young people tend to see the world in black and white, and the only reason Harry even sees Snape as grey is because he saved Harry's life. But now they're going on 15, and they should start seeing nuances. I think Hermione's going to be the first to do so.

I'm not so sure about Harry becoming more complex, though. I want him to, of course ... I tend to find him a little annoying in his bravery. [I do like him. But there has to be more ...] But, well ... there's this whole Harry the Hero thing, and I don't quite trust JKR to scratch that image. [Probably underestimating her ... wait and see.]

Hm. Could be, yes. But it's possible to have Harry the Hero and have him be less ... anoyingly good. Harry the Flawed Hero?

(Sheesh. These discussions get me *waaaay* too worked up over a book that's due when? Feb 2002? I probably won't even be able to read it once I have it, I'll be shaking so hard ...)

*giggle* Just listen for noise from the direction of Belgium round Feb 2002. If you hear a high-pitched scream, that'll be me. <g>

Ah, but if the hat were to decide based on the choice of the subject (the way it seems to have been influenced by Harry's wishes does imply that), wouldn't an awful number of students end up in houses that might be completely wrong for them just because they've heard about which one's the best house from their parents? I'm not liking that thought, though it's probably exactly what it's all about.

Good point. Although most people do take after their parents, so they'd not be completely out of character in their house.

There was a theory posted to HP4GU that made lots of sense to me:

*g* Well, I do like the 'latent magical abilities' idea. Also, if those are genetically determined, you'd have the reason why families often all end up in the same house. And then, of course, your character gets formed accordingly, because you live in that house ... and there are certain things expected from your house, qualities that *define* your house, which eventually you take on, too. (That would be the experiences-rather-than-inborn-traits aspect.)

Hm. Apparently, I made more sense than I realised. When the hell did that happen? Next thing you know, i'll be posting this theory to hp4gu. ^_^

As for that girl, you said it yourself ... Pansy. Draco fangirl extraordinaire. I like her for that. *grin*

I wonder if she writes fanfic about him. (And wether it's slash. :D)

Comments

Finally, the HP thread.

[sivan.livejournal.com]

That's okay. I figured I'd group all the threads in a fresh one, so there's less confusion. ^_^

Good idea. *adds to memories* I'll try and get back in the mood now, it's been so long. *g*

I also think Lucius would deliverately weed out any other male influence in Draco's life [...].

I hadn't thought about that, but now that I do that does seem likely. But then, I do doubt that there were other male influences to begin with. The only one I can imagine would be some kind of teacher, and any teacher would have been strictly controlled by Lucius.
Yes again on the plans count. He'll at least be destined to be the Malfoy heir, which is enough of a responsibility, what with it being such an old and well-known family. He has a representative function already.

Re: Ron insulting Narcissa
Hm. Somehow, that strikes me as a matter of honour rather than hurt.

Ah, you're probably right and I'm only grasping for straws.

"maybe because of some future development involving Narcissa."
Such as?

Oh, I dunno. I do still have this theory that something is going to happen to her that will make Draco reconsider simply following his father's beliefs. Thing is, I don't know if he really cares about her, because we just don't learn enough about their relationship (or Narcissa herself, for that matter) in canon.
The one argument I have why Narcissa must mean something to Draco is that there can't have been much warmth in his childhood and that his mother is one of the people that he most likely got that from. I mean, I'm really not sure how 'real' that warmth would've been, but he would have been the treasured heir and as such worthy of, well, some kind of affection.
But there's also the "cold, detached beauty" theory ...
I wish I knew more about Narcissa. I mean, we do learn things about Lucius, but Narcissa's just sort of there, in the background. (Though I suppose one could say that that's quite telling as far as her role in the family goes.) She could be a cold and cruel bitch, but she could also be loving but hardened. Hmph.

Great, now I want to write a fic dealing with the Narcissa/Draco relationship. Ack, talking to you is much too inspiring. ><

Lucius killing Nevill would not hurt Draco the way Narcissa's death would, but I do think it'd hit home to him that these are real people his Dad's killing, with real blood, with people who care for them.

Nothing to add here. You're right. The question is, would it be enough to make him leave his father's path? (And that, of course, leads us back to 'Is he basically a good person? Or does he at least have some kind of understanding of morals that his father doesn't? Or is his shying away from death only caused by aesthetic reasons?')

I'm wondering if maybe it wouldn't be more effective if someone else did the actual killing, while Lucius stood by passively. Yes? No?

Oooh, interesting. My first reaction was 'no', but now that I think about it ...
I believe Lucius'll try to avoid killing someone with his own hands before Draco's eyes, at least for the time being. But maybe he'll underestimate the impact that watching someone getting killed would have on Draco? Thing is ... Draco might never have witnessed a person being killed before (though we're actually not sure about that, are we?) but he can't be completely oblivious to what's happening around him, and to what his father does.

That said, why do you think did Draco warn Hermione not to get close to the DE at the Quidditch world cup? Because he did warn her ... that wasn't merely gloating.

Roland, however, could very well be forever trying to get to his mysterious Black Tower, and I'd not feel cheated out of a proper resolution, because this isn't a conflict that needs resolving.

Exactly. Now go read Hearts in Atlantis, you're going to love it. ;)

Re: Finally, the HP thread.

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought about that, but now that I do that does seem likely. But then, I do doubt that there were other male influences to begin with. The only one I can imagine would be some kind of teacher, and any teacher would have been strictly controlled by Lucius.

Exactly. 's Pretty much what I meant by "weed out" -- Lucius would simply not allow any male to get close to Draco. Teachers, uncles, friends' older siblings, all of these could be male influences in Draco's life. (Thinking of my own childhood here, and the influences I had.) But those would be selected/weeded out by Lucius. He, and he alone, should be Draco's ideal of what a man (and thus, Draco himself) should (grow up to) be. He's modelling Draco into a superior version of himself.

Oh, I dunno. I do still have this theory that something is going to happen to her that will make Draco reconsider simply following his father's beliefs. Thing is, I don't know if he really cares about her, because we just don't learn enough about their relationship (or Narcissa herself, for that matter) in canon.

Very true. All we really gleam from canon is that she's pretty, and (based on her name) probably v. self-involved.

The one argument I have why Narcissa must mean something to Draco is that there can't have been much warmth in his childhood and that his mother is one of the people that he most likely got that from. I mean, I'm really not sure how 'real' that warmth would've been, but he would have been the treasured heir and as such worthy of, well, some kind of affection.

Thinking about it, I'm swaying to yoçur side of this, actually. :) Because yes, Draco would have looked for affection somewhere, and yes, his mother woiuld be the logical person to look at. Even if she is just a cold, detached beauty, that would actually explain the wounded pride/hurt at Ron's (?) sneer to Narcissa. He would've idealised his mother to the point where anything that implies she may not, in fact, be the loving, Good (capitalisation intentional) person he's made her out to be in his mind, makes him white-hot.

Did that make sense?

Great, now I want to write a fic dealing with the Narcissa/Draco relationship. Ack, talking to you is much too inspiring. ><

Muahahahaha! =D

Re: Finally, the HP thread.

[bubosquared.livejournal.com]

Nothing to add here. You're right. The question is, would it be enough to make him leave his father's path? (And that, of course, leads us back to 'Is he basically a good person? Or does he at least have some kind of understanding of morals that his father doesn't? Or is his shying away from death only caused by aesthetic reasons?')

I'm not sure. I think at this point, he could really go either way. Someone on HP4GU was snarking about going to be be really disappointed in JKR if Draco turned "good", but personally, I will be really disappointed if Draco just "stays" "bad/evil" by default. The main thing I adored about HP from the get-go was the non-stereotypical characters. I don't want Draco to just join the ranks of Voldie just because, you know, he's Draco Malfoy, Harry's childhood enemy, and son of Lucius Malfoy, Death Eater.

(Incidentally, I cannot stop myself from giggling every time I call Lord Voldemort "Voldie". I feel like I'm being really blasphemous. Like any moment now, he could be bursting out of the woodwork, yelling "Don't call me "Voldie"! And all I would be able to do is giggle at him. I am quite possibly insane. Or in dire need of coffee.)

If nothing else, and I may have said this before, it irritates me that people (and by that I mean the readers) are, basically, condemning Draco for what he is -- or is perceived as by Harry -- at age 14-15. And, well, that disturbs me. I'm sure they don't realise/mean this, and I realise Draco's a fictional character, for fuck's sake, but it disturbs me nonetheless. Because I remember that when I was 14-15, I was influencable and weak, and I remember people who did far, far worse things to others (including to me) than we've ever seen Draco do, and who turned out to be fairly decent people.

So yeah, I'd like to see Draco join the ranks of Harry and co. (He'd be a great asset. Really? Draco would be an excellent stratege. I don't think Harry would be. Wouldn't it be neat to see Harry deal with having to rely on Draco to win any war there might be? Oh, look. Bunny.) But more importantly, I want him to make a concious decision about his future. Join the "rebels" or join his father under Voldie? If the latter, because he really believes in Voldie, or because he thinks it's his "destiny", his "fate"?

Oooh, interesting. My first reaction was 'no', but now that I think about it ...
I believe Lucius'll try to avoid killing someone with his own hands before Draco's eyes, at least for the time being. But maybe he'll underestimate the impact that watching someone getting killed would have on Draco? Thing is ... Draco might never have witnessed a person being killed before (though we're actually not sure about that, are we?) but he can't be completely oblivious to what's happening around him, and to what his father does.

This is true. However, the human mind has quite an ability for denial. On a purely intellectual level, he may know, but does he really realise it?

That said, why do you think did Draco warn Hermione not to get close to the DE at the Quidditch world cup? Because he did warn her ... that wasn't merely gloating.

Absolutely, and it's one of the reasons I have hope for him. :) I don't know. I don't think he was conciously thinking "Must warn these people, because I actually kind of like them." I think it was more of a subconcious "Non-muggles/people I know, should maybe get them out of harm's way." Or something. I don't know.

(re: Dumbledore's words at the end of book 4
*looks puzzled* Which would be - what?

I don't know, but apparently not everyone is sure that is, in fact, what he meant. Eh. *shrug*

HP cont'd.

[sivan.livejournal.com]

Ack! These lj people are funny. 'Entry exceeds maximum length of 4000 characters. Go back and resubmit your data.' *goes back* *everything's gone, of course*
Very intelligent.

Anyway, past mistakes have taught me to be careful, so I'd saved the entry. *sigh of relief* Here's the rest.

In fact, it wasn't until I got on discussion lists that it occured to me he may have implied something else.

*looks puzzled* Which would be - what?
And I feel the same about Snape. I really don't like him, but I do want to learn more about him.

But now they're going on 15, and they should start seeing nuances. I think Hermione's going to be the first to do so.

I think she does already, in fact. She's a smart girl. (I'm really rather fond of her.)

Next thing you know, i'll be posting this theory to hp4gu. ^_^

*grin* I think we should post this whole thread and watch it get torn to bits. ^___^

I wonder if she writes fanfic about him. (And wether it's slash. :D)

You know, she probably does.