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In case any of you missed it, I'm going to Escapade this year. (I leave in twenty days, in fact, OMG!) And in my infinite wisdom (read: infinitely small impulse control) I signed up to moderate two panels. *facepalm*
The first is Beyond the Envelope: When does pushing the boundaries go too far?, which is the one I suggested. The idea was to discuss that sometimes fine line between taboo and common sense. For example, RPS was taboo for a long time, but (to me, at least), the showing of said RPS to the actual celebrities involved goes against any shred of common sense at all. So where and why do we draw the line? Thoughts/comments appreciated, as I've only just realised they'll probably be expecting me to be, like, coherent. Yeah, and I'd like a pony.
The other panel is Age: Just a Number? Fandom & age of consent, which I'm co-moderating with ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif){kind=small}
amatia. She'll be looking at underaged characters, and I'll be doing the underaged slashers. And that just came out sounding OMGSOWRONG but I'm too lazy to change it, so live with it. Here, too, comments are more than welcome.
Other panels I'd like to attend: Help! My fandom is tiny! and The History of Fandom (because sometimes I like to play the blasé fan, ha!), and possibly RPS: RPS and Ethics, which I may well end up walking out of if I perceive so much as a hint of self-righteousness. (Can you tell I'm bitter?)
But mostly, I'm looking forward to hanging out with rsadelle, amatia, schuyler, silviakundera, dine, and anyone else I might run into, and you've all hereby been forewarned that I babble. A lot. (I also eat a lot, and once I get started I tend to drink a lot, but that's usually not quite as annoying to other people.) And I have a rogue accent, so watch your heads.
Right now, I'm all "OMG HELP TWENTY DAYS AND I'VE NOT PLANNED ANYTHING YET," which isn't strictly accurate, I've registred and booked my plane and all, and that's all paid for, and I've been composing a list of minimum carry-on luggage, because I usually lug around about a ton of stuff (seriously, ask amatia), but with the recent security measures, and considering that I'll be wearing my cloak and thus standing out a lot and with my luck I will be picked at random to have my bag searched, I don't fancy unpacking my Bag o' Doom during my layover-cum-smokebreak, so my list is currently limited to the Alphasmart that is, I think, winging its way to me from Canadia, pen and paper, a hefty book, some snacks, a bottle of water, and my cigarettes, which isn't much more than I take on my normal one-hour commute, so that ought to be all right.
(I am the queen of run-on sentences.)
I'm also bringing the Godaweful Dyke Porn Novelette, so you can all see for yourself how Godaweful this is. Seriously. But I'm not sure there's anything else I should be bringing. Requests? Can I get chocolate into the States? Cause I could fill up every free bit of space in my suitcase with belgian chocolate, and potentially buy me some minions with it. Muahahahaha!
Now, let's see, I've registered, I've transport, I've roomies, I've money ... What am I missing?
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Anyham, have fun! Take lots of photos, if possible.
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You realize that you have to go next year too so I can
publicly molestmeet you, right?From:
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I won't give you any real tips because I'm the kind of guy who prepares for the worst, so I'd take a flashlight, a blanket and my sleeping bag just in case something goes wrong and I need to sleep under a bridge.
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I'm already planning to take a sleeping mat in case the mattresses are too soft for my back, and a sleeping bag if I have room for it. Also, I'm picky about my soap and all, and I can not travel without Nivea. Holdover from eleven childhood summers at camp, I suppose.
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Which reminds me I must have touchy boy love pictures somewhere, but they never kissed in public, I knew they showered together but then I nearly joined them and I'm not so gay.
Enough TMI for now...
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this Escapade should be killer - I'll reserve a table in the private Escapade Lounge for us, shall I?
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I'm so excited, I can't even tell you! Of course, this makes me pre-travel neurotics even worse, but that's to be expected.
(Ha! I remember what I forgot! Must remember to a) cash my tax refund cheque, and b) make sure I ask for traveller's cheques in time. Now if only I could decide how much money to bring ...)
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at one show of the Celebrity tour, a little boy near the front was wearing it, and Chris convinced him he *needed* to borrow it for a while. so he was wearing it onstage for a while, several people snapped pictures, and I ended up with 2 lovely icons commemorating the moment.
PS - C.o.C.K. is the Cult of Chris Kirkpatrick
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Chris Kirkpatrick: Boyband member In A Chicken Hat!
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I have this aweful habit of always thinking I've forgotten something, even though I'm usually overprepared. I can be a right neurotic sometimes.
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Well, completely without starting point, this is what I think.
Concerning underage slashers:
It's funny, but I think that if you're talking about underage slashers, it really isn't the slash part anyone's worried about. It's the smut. The R-rated or NC-17 smut. And I'm sure there's enough het smut out there, so as such, it doesn't make much sense to be worried about underage slashers.
So I suppose there are really two aspects to consider when speaking of underage slashers: a) the slash and b) the smut (or should I say 'sexually explicit scenes', *ahem*).
Let's start with the slash aspect. From where I'm standing, reading slash (regardless of whether or not a certain fic contains sexually explicit scenes) has mostly positive effects. When we talk of underage slashers, we're mostly talking about teenagers -- people in a part of their life when they decide what they'll be, who they'll be. How they are going to act and what morals they are going to respect. They're easily influenced.
I think reading slash gives them a positive input for open-mindedness. Homosexuality becomes a part of their world, unquestioned and perfectly acceptable. I think there are a lot of people out there who have come to terms with homosexuality in the outside world by reading slash. Fierce opponents of homosexuality likely won't be swayed by reading slash, but what about those who aren't quite sure what to think about it yet? And I can speak for others, I'm sure, when I say that though I've never discriminated anyone based on their sexual orientation, and always disagreed with anyone who did, homosexuality was just something… Out There, for me. When I finally met someone who was openly bisexual, it was odd. Uncomfortable, simply because it isn't a thing we're used to, and I didn't know how to react to that. I'm not sure how it is in the US, but here at least, you rarely hear someone say they're gay. It's still taboo, especially for those going through their puberty. So, accepting something doesn't mean you're comfortable with it. However, after reading slash, I've come to think of homosexuality as the most natural thing in the world. I'm sure it's had the same effect on other people.
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From a more fanficcy POV… well, there's a lot of fanfic out there. Most is bad, some is good, but what I really like about fanfic is that each story can be so very different, can reveal so very different trains of thought. Often, when reading a fic, you can tell something about the psychology of the person writing it, through the psychology of the characters. I like that. It teaches us things about how people think -- how different they can be, and how similar, even if they think in a completely different way. That, too, promotes open-mindedness to me. You learn, through fanfic, that nobody is perfect. Fanfic has taught me, at least, to not only accept other people's flaws, but to appreciate them, because nobody's perfect, and that's exactly what makes people so interesting. I'm not sure if this really comes through with a teenager -- I suppose it all depends on their maturity. But, regardless, I think fanfic can teach us all a good deal about psychology, whether we consciently absorb it, or whether it just affects us in a way we don't understand. Of course, you can learn this from books, too, but I think fanfic usually takes these things further than books do. And because fanfic's usually briefer, it's so much easier to appreciate the diversity.
And still from a fanficcy POV, let's not forget the improvement of writing skills. JKR may teach children around the world to read, fanfic is teaching children around the world to write. Even if they only read fanfic. There's more to learn from reading one atrocious fanfic than from reading one good book, because you can feel what doesn't work. You don't pay so much attention to what does.
I do think reading slash could have some negative consequences, too, though. Fics often represent homosexuality as the standard -- I don't know about other fandoms, but in HP (and hobbitslash at least), half the population of the concerning verse is either gay or bisexual. If people reading fic are too immature to handle this, they could end up with a skewered version of reality. Similarly, homosexuality is often accepted by everyone in fic (not always, but often) -- younger fanficcers may 'forget' that this isn't so in the outside world, and get into trouble because of it. I'm not sure their peers would be too tolerant of talk about gayness and slash.
Moreover, there is the question of the realism of the relationships represented in fic. I suppose it all depends on what kind of fic they read, and if they read enough diverse stuff, but they could end up with a very muddled up view of what it's like to be gay. Or a very one-dimensional view, at least.
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When talking about the higher rated fics, I think there's also two aspects to consider: the legal aspect and your personal opinion.
Misleading links (I once encountered a site where you had to push the 'leave' button to actually enter the site, just to make sure you'd read everything… That did make me wonder about those people who took one look at the site, decided they were in the wrong place, and clicked 'leave'… *ahem*) can also help ensure people know what the site is about. Because, let's face it, there are plenty of people who just skip the warnings. You might say that's their own fault, but legally, it's still your job to make as sure as possible that people do read it. (Of course, they might just think twice about reading warnings, if they accidentally land themselves into a slash fic when they haven't got a clue what it is.)
Just putting up a warning at the beginning of every fic is nice, but, um, I doubt many people will read it.
Legally, I think collecting age-statements is the only way to go. You've done everything you possibly can to ensure your readers are old enough to read your stuff. I'm still wondering if it's enough, though -- if a bartender serves alcohol to an underage kid, "hey, he said he was older!" isn't going to work. But really, you can't be expected to do anything more than that.
Warnings are nice, as big as possible. But I'm not sure where that leaves you. Reading adult fic is not a matter of informed consent. It simply isn't legal for young teenagers to read adult fic -- they're not legally considered old enough to decide for themselves whether they should read something or not. If they do read it, they're not the ones breaking the law -- the host of the website is, I think. I think warnings might make for "verzachtende omstandigheden" if it were ever taken to court, but I doubt it'd be enough.
This is just legally, though.
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I could get on my soapbox, but I'm too rambly about this right now, so you'll have to wait for my panel summary post-Escapade. ;)
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Plus, I do believe people can decide for themselves if they're ready or not. Those who aren't simply won't be interested. Those who are -- you can stop them from reading slash, but if they're already interested in sex, well, they'll just try and get their hands on anything they can. In that way, I think (though I'm not sure at all) that considering most slash readers are female, while there's mostly m/m slash out there, there's actually less chance reading slash smut will lead to experimenting. Well, I suppose that reading smut in general leads to less chance of experimenting. ;-)
On a positive note, again, I think reading smut -- whether het or slash -- promotes a certain kind of open-mindedness, of acceptance. Not only of other people's sexuality, but of one's own. Especially for teens, sex is still a subject that is talked about in amongst emphatic giggles. Not saying that that's a bad thing or anything, but reading smut might put them more at ease with their own sexuality when the time comes for them to experiment. (And let's face it, nowadays, no matter what the law says, they're not going to wait till they're sixteen, let alone eighteen… However, a lot of parents are reluctant to speak to their teenagers about sex, and feel they are too young to experiment, etc… Makes for a rather uncomfortable atmosphere.)
It also promotes a kind of open-mindedness towards different, er, tastes (not sure what the term is). I'm not just talking of being gay, but of all the kinks people display. In slash fandom, or at least in a part of it, it's OK to be kinky. Nobody's going to look at you weirdly (if you're in the 'right' corner of fandom, anyway). It opens people's minds towards other people's kinks, and helps them accept their own, which can be a pretty tricky business.
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On a further negative note, still… I think that if a reader gets deeply into stuff like BDSM, non-con, etc at an impressionable age, it might give them a skewered view of what constitutes 'normal' sex. I don't think psychologists have as yet found the One True Answer as to why people get into e.g. BDSM, but I can't imagine anyone getting into it because of fics they read, when they don't have any propensity for it. If they do, however, find they like that kind of thing, it may be too much, too soon. They might concentrate on the more 'violent' or kinky fics, entirely forgetting about things like tenderness, etc (I'm not saying there can't be any tenderness in a BDSM relationship, but when I look at the fic I read, well…). I think this could really influence someone's sexual development in a bad way. Again, certainly not saying this is the case for everyone, but it could.
Similarly, there are plenty of absolutely baffling non-con fics out there. Read too many of those, and people might think rape is 'acceptable', that it's just the way things are done. This may seem incredible, but think of someone who has little knowledge of sex, but hungers for any knowledge of it, and the first fic they stumble across is a horrific non-con fic. Actually, I think this may be a little less of a problem with slash fic, as there's less chance the reader would really identify with any of the characters. Or no, that's not true, we always identify, but I mean, it's less likely to become some sort of role model.
On that note, it is rather regretful that exactly those fics who are written by mature, adult, responsible writers, and who are most likely to contain at least remotely realistic sex, are most likely to be password-protected, and thus least likely to be read. Quite ironic, really. As an aside, I think well-written slash could perhaps even promote equality between partners in a relationship.
Basically, I have no problems with teens reading smut, but I might have a problem with how that smut is depicted. I think, in the end, that it all comes down to the parents. Or at least, to education. Explain everything clearly to your kids, allow them to read many different things if that's what they want, and they'll be fine. Keep them in the dark, and you've potentially a big problem with what your kid might be reading. All they need is, IMHO, a good basis to start from.
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Of course, it's really the same with just about any erotic/pornographic literature, but still.
I should have put that underneath just about everything I said. *g* Like I said, to me, the problem specifically for underage slashers seems to come from the smut aspect rather than the slash aspect. (I appreciate what you said in another comment, but it doesn't really have anything to do with underage readers.) But the smut is an integral part of slash fandom -- it might not be what defines it as slash, but it's everywhere. And yeah, there are published works out there that are just as bad if not worse where unrealistic sex scenes, etc, are concerned. However:
a) we're not writing or hosting those publications. They're killing people all over the world in wars, and those deaths are for a large part condoned. Doesn't mean I should kill my neighbour. (But I hear what you're saying.)
b) If the parents don't filter their internet access, well, despite all I said, I do think it's a lot easier to get smut through the net than through any other way.
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I see what you mean with point a), but the thing is that I don't kill people not because it's illegal, but in the first place because it is, in my world view, immoral. And having my smut up for kids to read is not immoral to me. (Nor is it illegal in Belgium, I don't think.) And I'm wandering dagnerously close to an essay on good and evil and Good and Evil and internal vs external morality, and that's my brother's speciality. :D
You're right about point b), but, well, see above about the harm of smut for teenagers. AFAIR, pretty much all teenagers are pervs anyway.
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You! Out of my brain! Now! :p
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Oh, everyone's, definitely, and I'm mainly trying to come up with some discussion points for the panel (it's not a presentation/talk as much as moderating a discussion on a topic, really).
It's funny, but I think that if you're talking about underage slashers, it really isn't the slash part anyone's worried about. It's the smut. The R-rated or NC-17 smut. And I'm sure there's enough het smut out there, so as such, it doesn't make much sense to be worried about underage slashers.
Ah, ma chére, you're so naive. It's cute. ;)
I like your points about slash being a positive influence, although I would point out that there's a surprising amount of homophobia in slash fandom, not to mention heterophobia and misogyny. (Since you mentioned seeing "shades of the author", so to speak, in the fic ...)
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Ah, OK, sorry about the ramble then. *g*
Ah, ma chére, you're so naive.
*blush* Ahem, that's quite possible. Do enlighten me. I really don't get what's wrong with a girl reading m/m slash... except perhaps for religious issues.
there's a surprising amount of homophobia in slash fandom
*blink* Really? How's that?
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Oh, not at all! You've brought up some excellent points to bring up in the panel/discussion!
*blush* Ahem, that's quite possible. Do enlighten me. I really don't get what's wrong with a girl reading m/m slash... except perhaps for religious issues.
It's not that there's something wrong with it, but that reading m/m slash doesn't necessarily mean one won't be hopmophobic. Homophobia can be quite subtle, and even I sometimes have to have it pointed out to me.
(Disclaimer: Most of what I'm about to ramble is based on what the slash fandom (and by that I mean "old skool" mainstream fandoms like The Sentinel, Highlander, etc.) was like up to about three years ago. I don't know if it's still like this in Fandom at Large, as I tend to avoid FAL for the most part, and I don't really "read around" anymore due to personal pickiness. So keep that in mind.)
A very common pet peeve among those slashers who are vocal enough to have a peeve list is "They're not Gay, they're just In Love!" stories, in which it's made quite clear to the reader (sometimes in so many words, even) that these two men are completely straight except for the tiny fact that they happen to be in love with each other. Yeah, I never understood that, either. There's a subtext of homophobia in there, as if being gay (or bi, but bi-phobia is another rant entirely) is reserved for the effeminate blokes and obviously these two manly men can't be gay, never mind the fact that they're saying all this with their mouth full of each other's dick.
(Ahem. Sorry about the crudeness, there.)
There's other examples, but that's the one that always struck me as the most glaring one, and I'd have to think to remember the other examples and explain why they struck me as homophobic.
Then there's the utter misogyny inherent in all the (ex-)gf bashing and the recuction of any canon female character to the Bitch, the Yenta or the Sister Figure, and that's even she's even acknowledged at all.
Did any of that make sense?
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A very common pet peeve among those slashers who are vocal enough to have a peeve list is "They're not Gay, they're just In Love!" stories, in which it's made quite clear to the reader (sometimes in so many words, even) that these two men are completely straight except for the tiny fact that they happen to be in love with each other. Yeah, I never understood that, either.
I've yet to come across anything like this in the HP fandom. Well, no, actually, I have read stories concerning straight guys having sex (
It amuses me, though, that people might write, um, non-gay slash (?) because they think gay people are so femmy. (That's like a double prejudice. *snort*) Because what they're writing should then actually be closer to the 'real thing' than they expect it to.
Did any of that make sense?
Made perfect sense to me. ^_^
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