I agree with you on this, but I don't know if it's for the same reasons. It's no secret that I don't like Draco. I have, BTW, read some of those Draco-fics you recced (Wheather of the Heart series and Haeddu) and though I kinda liked Haeddu (I think you really have to like H/D to like WotH), and recognise that it's well-written, neither has made me like Draco. Heh, I've wanted to post my 'ten unpopular fandom opinions" for a while now, just 'cause it's an easy way to address a couple of points I'd like to address all at once, and one of my not-so-well thought out points was (well, it was in my head *ahem*) that I don't like the Malfoys. Then I was trying to reason out why I didn't like the Malfoys. And then I realised I disliked Lucius and Draco for entirely unrelated reasons. I dislike Lucius because he means nothing to me. I can't get into his head. He's cold and cruel and one-dimensional. I think people usually recognise parts of themselves in the characters, and that's what makes them sympathise, whether those character traits are considered good or bad. I can't recognise a single thing in Lucius. I have nothing in common with him. But Draco. Oh yes, I do recognise character traits in Draco that I possess at least in part myself. The trouble is, they're all negative character traits. And it's not so much that I mind people having negative character traits -- hell, if I recognise them, I must have plenty myself -- it's that I can't find a single positive character trait in him. No matter how hard I think, there isn't even a small something I can come up with that proves Draco has at least some kind of potential to become half-way decent. And by decent, I don't even mean he has to come to the good side -- I mean some strength of character, some proof of loyalty towards those he considers his friends. I don't care if he knocks down Hermione because she insulted Goyle. Well, yes I would care, but at the same time, it would prove to me that there is something good in Draco, in his own way. But there isn't. He's spoiled rotten, selfish, never seems ashamed of anything, yet at the same time never stands his ground. He's a coward and hides behind his father's name and behind Crabbe and Goyle. And all that put together makes him totally unfit to be a DE. It also makes me more sympathetic towards him than I am towards Lucius -- in spite of the fact that he does seem to have a lot of strength of character -- but for me it would take someone who took all that and put Draco into a situation where he simply can't hide behind anyone anymore to make me like him. Er. Sorry for the tangent.
it's just, dude, shut up, if you're that powerful, stroke your own ego!
Lol! Yeah, that's true. I think the need to take over the world is just born from some deep-seated feeling of insecurity. :-)
At that age, and considering his upbringing, is it that surprising he sees the glory of being a DE, and doesn't realise the grim, bloody reality of it?
I agree, though I suspect for different reasons. :-) I just don't think dear Draco is quite prepared to soil his hands doing this. He's safe hiding behind his cronies. I don't think his stomach could stand actually seeing someone dead, in spite of his grand talk, let alone kill them.
And I suppose I just elaborated unasked, didn't I? *cough* Sorry!
Aw, man, stop apologising for elaborating! Of course I want to hear what you think. You're making me feel terribly guilty for all the times that I elaborated unasked, not to mention all the times that I completely went off on a tangent, which seems to be one of my specialties. I hope I'm not annoying you with that, if it's worrying you so much when you do it yourself. I generally apologise for tangents; not for elaborating, though. :-) I love hearing people's opinions, so go right ahead next time, 'k? Besides, I'm always so much behind with my comments, I might never get around to asking if you don't do it immediately. ;-)
That's actually one of my pet Twins theories, the fact that all twins are different, and that should include Fred and George.
That's one of the strange things about the twins as JKR describes them. It always struck me as utterly weird when she described them as "identical to the last freckle". Because that's simply biologically impossible. Though I suppose she could just be describing them as Harry perceives them. Still find that weird. I once read the two first books trying to pay special attention to the twins' characters, trying to find a difference, but I couldn't really find one. At some points Fred seemed more assertive, at others George. Though I suppose they're more likely to be characterised slightly differently in one of the later books. Will have to reread and pay attention. :-) I've always wondered whether JKR is hammering so much on their similarity just to hit us with some differences between them later on. tillytilly wrote one of my favourite ficlets ever, in which she sort of analyses what it's like for the twins to be identical to the point in which JKR describes them. Which is really rather odd -- I can't imagine twins actually feeling this way, though perhaps they could, to a lesser degree.
I hope I'm not annoying you with that, if it's worrying you so much when you do it yourself.
Nonono, it's just that it's been a while since I've had anyone new to talk HP to, so I never know if I'm repeating myself or not, or if I'm boring you. :)
As for the twins, I don't think about them as much as I do about other characters and things, but it always struck me as odd that they never went through a phase where they wanted to be different, and not to be seen as one entity ("Gred and Forge") anymore. Pretty much every pair of twins I've ever known (of) went through a phase like that, and even the ones who didn't had their own identity and friends, at least to some extent. It really makes me wonder about Fred and George.
I agree with you on this, but I don't know if it's for the same reasons.
I think we're actually pretty much on the same page about the reasons. :)
I mean some strength of character, some proof of loyalty towards those he considers his friends. I don't care if he knocks down Hermione because she insulted Goyle. Well, yes I would care, but at the same time, it would prove to me that there is something good in Draco, in his own way.
What about the time he attacked Harry (one of the few (the only?) times Draco is the one to turn to physical violence, btw) because Harry insulted Narcissa?
He's a coward and hides behind his father's name and behind Crabbe and Goyle. And all that put together makes him totally unfit to be a DE.
Exactly, exactly. Because I don't think one can be a Death eater without actually killing oneself, it doesn't seem to be the kind of ... "group", for lack of a better word, who are content to sit around and let their minions do the work. I mean, look at the confrontation between the DEs and Harry&co at the Ministry in OP! The DE's motto (and indeed Voldie's motto) does seem to be "If you want something done right, you've to do it yourself," and I cannot see Draco do that.
I mean, keep in mind that this is the kid who ran away screaming at the sight of the dead unicord in PS (and as an aside, if he were as evil-to-the-core as so many people think, wouldn't the sight of slain innocence have pleased him? He's a coward, sure, but there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But I'll step off my Gryffindor issues. <g>)
And while canon!Draco is far from the witty, sarcastic boy fanon!Draco is (although I concur with silviakundera that fanon!Draco is who caon!Draco thinks/wishes he is), his preferred weapons are insults and jibes, lame as they are. He never even sends Crabbe and Goyle after Harry&co to beat them up, and with one exception (see above) it's always Harry or Ron who take the fight to a physical level. (Must resist sarcastic comments about Gryffindors.)
The DEs, on the other hand, seem to be a rather physical bunch, they enjoy physically torturing their victims (through magic, sure, but the pain is still physical, and direct, and I don't think they'd be able to accept as one of their own a person who can't/won't/hasn't do(ne) that.
So yes, I think we're seeing eye-to-eye on this, actually, and now that I've pointed at some of my favourite/"most significant" Draco moments, I'll shut up for the time being. Ahem.
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Re: Feedback, at last...
I agree with you on this, but I don't know if it's for the same reasons. It's no secret that I don't like Draco. I have, BTW, read some of those Draco-fics you recced (Wheather of the Heart series and Haeddu) and though I kinda liked Haeddu (I think you really have to like H/D to like WotH), and recognise that it's well-written, neither has made me like Draco. Heh, I've wanted to post my 'ten unpopular fandom opinions" for a while now, just 'cause it's an easy way to address a couple of points I'd like to address all at once, and one of my not-so-well thought out points was (well, it was in my head *ahem*) that I don't like the Malfoys. Then I was trying to reason out why I didn't like the Malfoys. And then I realised I disliked Lucius and Draco for entirely unrelated reasons. I dislike Lucius because he means nothing to me. I can't get into his head. He's cold and cruel and one-dimensional. I think people usually recognise parts of themselves in the characters, and that's what makes them sympathise, whether those character traits are considered good or bad. I can't recognise a single thing in Lucius. I have nothing in common with him. But Draco. Oh yes, I do recognise character traits in Draco that I possess at least in part myself. The trouble is, they're all negative character traits. And it's not so much that I mind people having negative character traits -- hell, if I recognise them, I must have plenty myself -- it's that I can't find a single positive character trait in him. No matter how hard I think, there isn't even a small something I can come up with that proves Draco has at least some kind of potential to become half-way decent. And by decent, I don't even mean he has to come to the good side -- I mean some strength of character, some proof of loyalty towards those he considers his friends. I don't care if he knocks down Hermione because she insulted Goyle. Well, yes I would care, but at the same time, it would prove to me that there is something good in Draco, in his own way. But there isn't. He's spoiled rotten, selfish, never seems ashamed of anything, yet at the same time never stands his ground. He's a coward and hides behind his father's name and behind Crabbe and Goyle. And all that put together makes him totally unfit to be a DE. It also makes me more sympathetic towards him than I am towards Lucius -- in spite of the fact that he does seem to have a lot of strength of character -- but for me it would take someone who took all that and put Draco into a situation where he simply can't hide behind anyone anymore to make me like him. Er. Sorry for the tangent.
it's just, dude, shut up, if you're that powerful, stroke your own ego!
Lol! Yeah, that's true. I think the need to take over the world is just born from some deep-seated feeling of insecurity. :-)
At that age, and considering his upbringing, is it that surprising he sees the glory of being a DE, and doesn't realise the grim, bloody reality of it?
I agree, though I suspect for different reasons. :-) I just don't think dear Draco is quite prepared to soil his hands doing this. He's safe hiding behind his cronies. I don't think his stomach could stand actually seeing someone dead, in spite of his grand talk, let alone kill them.
From:
Re: Feedback, at last...
Aw, man, stop apologising for elaborating! Of course I want to hear what you think. You're making me feel terribly guilty for all the times that I elaborated unasked, not to mention all the times that I completely went off on a tangent, which seems to be one of my specialties. I hope I'm not annoying you with that, if it's worrying you so much when you do it yourself. I generally apologise for tangents; not for elaborating, though. :-) I love hearing people's opinions, so go right ahead next time, 'k? Besides, I'm always so much behind with my comments, I might never get around to asking if you don't do it immediately. ;-)
That's actually one of my pet Twins theories, the fact that all twins are different, and that should include Fred and George.
That's one of the strange things about the twins as JKR describes them. It always struck me as utterly weird when she described them as "identical to the last freckle". Because that's simply biologically impossible. Though I suppose she could just be describing them as Harry perceives them. Still find that weird. I once read the two first books trying to pay special attention to the twins' characters, trying to find a difference, but I couldn't really find one. At some points Fred seemed more assertive, at others George. Though I suppose they're more likely to be characterised slightly differently in one of the later books. Will have to reread and pay attention. :-) I've always wondered whether JKR is hammering so much on their similarity just to hit us with some differences between them later on.
From:
Re: Feedback, at last...
Nonono, it's just that it's been a while since I've had anyone new to talk HP to, so I never know if I'm repeating myself or not, or if I'm boring you. :)
As for the twins, I don't think about them as much as I do about other characters and things, but it always struck me as odd that they never went through a phase where they wanted to be different, and not to be seen as one entity ("Gred and Forge") anymore. Pretty much every pair of twins I've ever known (of) went through a phase like that, and even the ones who didn't had their own identity and friends, at least to some extent. It really makes me wonder about Fred and George.
From:
Re: Feedback, at last...
I think we're actually pretty much on the same page about the reasons. :)
I mean some strength of character, some proof of loyalty towards those he considers his friends. I don't care if he knocks down Hermione because she insulted Goyle. Well, yes I would care, but at the same time, it would prove to me that there is something good in Draco, in his own way.
What about the time he attacked Harry (one of the few (the only?) times Draco is the one to turn to physical violence, btw) because Harry insulted Narcissa?
He's a coward and hides behind his father's name and behind Crabbe and Goyle. And all that put together makes him totally unfit to be a DE.
Exactly, exactly. Because I don't think one can be a Death eater without actually killing oneself, it doesn't seem to be the kind of ... "group", for lack of a better word, who are content to sit around and let their minions do the work. I mean, look at the confrontation between the DEs and Harry&co at the Ministry in OP! The DE's motto (and indeed Voldie's motto) does seem to be "If you want something done right, you've to do it yourself," and I cannot see Draco do that.
I mean, keep in mind that this is the kid who ran away screaming at the sight of the dead unicord in PS (and as an aside, if he were as evil-to-the-core as so many people think, wouldn't the sight of slain innocence have pleased him? He's a coward, sure, but there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But I'll step off my Gryffindor issues. <g>)
And while canon!Draco is far from the witty, sarcastic boy fanon!Draco is (although I concur with
The DEs, on the other hand, seem to be a rather physical bunch, they enjoy physically torturing their victims (through magic, sure, but the pain is still physical, and direct, and I don't think they'd be able to accept as one of their own a person who can't/won't/hasn't do(ne) that.
So yes, I think we're seeing eye-to-eye on this, actually, and now that I've pointed at some of my favourite/"most significant" Draco moments, I'll shut up for the time being. Ahem.