I've been thinking lately about if/how to write about a minority I'm not part of. Specifically, about me, as a white girl, writing about non-white characters. This could apply both to fanfic and non-fanfic, but I'm mostly thinking about the latter, because in fanfic, if the canon glosses over certain aspects of racial differences, for example, it's easy enough to follow its lead and not bring that up in fanfic.

But when I'm creating my own canon, that's a decision I actually have to make, and it's one that keeps making me wibble like there's no tomorrow. On the one hand, I don't want to write "colourblind", but on the other hand, I also don't want to fuck up if I do write about the more touchy subjects.

(And that's not even mentioning the "How the fuck do you show-not-tell race?" issue, which is something else I wrestle with, and augh.)

So, yeah. Thoughts? Opinions? Pointers? Swats upside the head? Anything? Like I said, this is mostly a non-fanfic thing, but opinions pertaining to fanfic arealso welcome, as I do write non-white characters in fanfic as well. *vague handwave at Lee and Mickey* (This is not a crossover bunny!)


From: [identity profile] lokifin.livejournal.com


are you talking about writing from the POV of a nonwhite character? because I think that's different than writing about nonwhite characters from the POV of a white character, who can be expected to have a few misconceptions, which, if you want to make it clear that it's a fault of the character, can be brought into the open casually in a couple scenes. As for the POV of someone with another racial identity...I wouldn't know what to do with that for fear of either glossing over everything or making it too obvious.

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


... Either/both, I think. I have at least one novel where one of the three POV characters is non-white, and the Mickey/Jake I'm poking at is from Mickey's POV, but there'd be outsider perspective as well, obviously.

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com

Hit "submit" too soon ...


I wouldn't know what to do with that for fear of either glossing over everything or making it too obvious.

Yeah, that's pretty much my big fear, as well. :/

From: [identity profile] dramaturgy.livejournal.com


LEEEEEEEEE.

Um. That's about the extent of my advice. I suppose my real advices is to be matter of fact when it's a matter of character description, don't do anything that isn't a part of the character and world you are trying to create, and experiment until you find something you like.

From: [identity profile] elfiepike.livejournal.com


really, it's just writing from a different POV, right? hm.

try reading some stuff by octavia butler; she has at least one series that follows a black woman (at least) as the main protagonist. (plus, she has a short story collection in which there is a truly fantastic sci-fi male pregnancy. she's kind of one of my favorite authors ever.)

of course, she is mostly sci-fi, less fantasy, which i know tends to be your focus. hm. basically, yeah, i would try reading books written from non-white perspectives and see what makes them different.

when you're actually creating, though, well, you get a lot of leeway. depending on how the peoples of your world move about, there could be a lot of intermingling or there could be almost none and people would find foreign faces shocking! etc etc. (like, i'm from a part of the u.s. with a lot of different communities represented, so i'm very used to seeing different colors/fashions/etc etc and it would be weird without it.)

i'm not sure if this is helpful, but i'm totally available to bounce ideas, too. :)

From: [identity profile] mousewrites.livejournal.com


Hey, Melle...

So, yeah. I've been dealing with this. I went to the 'Where have all the people of color gone" panel at Escapade (run by Lady Jax and [livejournal.com profile] coniraya), and then realized that a friend of mine from rennisance faire had a blog (http://www.andweshallmarch.typepad.com/) about the subject.

I asked her the same thing. Here's my email and her response...

Quote:


Her response:
Quote:


Sorry for the long comment, but I thought you might like to read it.

Pam has also offered to see if she knows any P.o.C. who'd be willing to talk to this very white girl about what it's like to be a professional ad exec in LA. Research is keen...

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


Heee, okay, I take it you like My Boy, then? ;) Lee is one of the ones where I have this that much, because racial issues seem to not exist in the wizarding world, so I feel better about just writing him like any other character ... which may be a good thing, or not, I don't know.

Also, your icon is making me think about Lee in a toga, and um. I'll be in my bunk.

From: [identity profile] dramaturgy.livejournal.com


Your boy = wins. :D

Bwahahaha. Hooray for toga parties.

From: [identity profile] bibliotech.livejournal.com


You have Common Sense, or I would beg you not to bother. But really, just avoid the "by the way, I am black, have I mentioned that I am black? Because, you know, I'm black" as a means of--well--letting the reader know the character is black.

Also, this might just be me, but lately I've been seeing this a lot in published fiction: when the minority character first appears, the author goes out of their way to describe the colour of their skin. "She was tall, and the colour of coffee with two creams. Her light brown skin hinted at something more than just African ancestry" (that's almost a direct quote from...I can't remember what, but as the story goes on, her race has absolutely nothing to do with it. And no one ever describes how pale the white people are.) For some reason, that mildly irritates me, especially when at least a paragraph is devoted to it, and it has no bearing on the story.

From: [identity profile] troubleinchina.livejournal.com


Well, my love, here are the articles I was talking to you about:

Josh Whedon and Race, which really got me thinking.

Frustration with the OMG! We're so good! We don't talk about race! crowd.

Good things, which got my thoughts in gear. Might work for yours, too. I'm terribly excited about my Mythic Africa now.

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


*notes* Octavia Butler, gotcha. Thanks!

basically, yeah, i would try reading books written from non-white perspectives and see what makes them different.

I should've thought of that myself, shouldn't I? I'm really good at missing the obvious. <g>

(like, i'm from a part of the u.s. with a lot of different communities represented, so i'm very used to seeing different colors/fashions/etc etc and it would be weird without it.)

I think this is actually part of my problem--I'm used to seing lots of different races/nationalities represented as welll (though not quite the same way as in the US, and there's a big difference even between Belgium and the UK, but I digress), so when I'm creating characters, they're almost automatically going to include some non-white people, because that's what I'm used to seeing. But then I start thinking, especially with contemporary settings, that not acknowleding anything othr than skin colour is different about these character is whitewashing, which I try not to do. :/


From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


Hey hon, thanks for the input!

For instance, he has dreads. Now, part of me thinks that people will go "STEROTYPIST!" and get the pitchforks if I do that and he's black, while if I did it and he was white people would just think it's edgy. ...

Oh, god, I so feel you there. In my one contemproary novel, I have a character who's Asian (Vietnamese, to be precise), and I keep worrying that making her parents so strict about school stuff is stereotyping, and then I worry I'm just being oversensitive because I don't worry like that about giving the Irish-descent family red hair, and AUGH!

Trying is better than not trying. Every time you write something, you
learn.


You know, I think I need to cross-stitch that and frame it or something, and then stop worrying and just go for it. I can always worry about this in the editing phase.

And yes, research good. Also, an excuse to buy more books! Um, I mean.

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


Heh, yeah, I think this is one of those situations where I think drawing parallels to queer characters helps, because it irritates the fuck out of me when they do that with gays and lesbians (Marvel, I am looking at you!), so that's something I'm definitely avoiding. (And that paragraph you quoted is just ... ugh. I mean, apart from everything else, it's just gag-worthy writing.)

Though then you do run into the other side of that coin, the "white until proven otherwise" syndrome, and considering that there were people who didn't realise that Cho Chang was Asian, ands the Patil sisters were Indian, I don't know that I can really count on surnames to give people a clue, even in a contemporary setting.

I think I just need to do some research into Vietnamese culture formy contemporary novel, and see if I can weave some more cultural details into the novel, without getting all "OMG look at me, I did my research, SEE?" about it.

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com

Also ...


You have Common Sense

Somewhere in Belgium, my mother is laughing hysterically, and she doesn't know why. :D

From: [identity profile] bibliotech.livejournal.com


Oh! Damn it, I saw that somewhere last week, and I couldn't remember...I was reading something, and someone new walked into the room and the main character said, "She had long blonde hair [blah blah blah about how blonde it was], she was a lesbian and her big green eyes sparkled like [blah blah blah]" and I stopped and went "...what?" And then you never hear anyone mention anything about her in relation to her sexuality ever again. So...why just randomly slip it in there like that, between "hair" and "eyes"? People do this so badly.

From: [identity profile] sparklebutch.livejournal.com


How can I, being who I am, write English, American, or various types of Europian characters, without being horribly ridiculous and lame? That's a good question. How do I not suck in ways that should make me cringe and cower in a corner for eternity?

I really have no answer. I just wanted to share the woe.

From: [identity profile] elfiepike.livejournal.com


actually, ursula le guin does quite a bit of non-white protagonists; the whole wizard of earthsea series stars non-white people, the left hand of darkness features (if i remember correctly) a black man as it's main character who, in addition, is surrounded by a genderless/gender-shifting society, making it possibly interesting for that alone, too. (i quite love the left hand of darkness, btw.)

you could also do it this way: why is color important? because it's obvious. therefore, everyone's color is important, but only in terms of how it relates to you, right? an asian kid raised by white people is gonna have a different experience than an asian kid raised by asian people, as an example.

it's a combination of what's familiar and what's traditional in the character's community, ultimately. i'm not sure if that helped at all. XD

From: [identity profile] sweetle.livejournal.com


I don't know I've you've read anything by Neil Gaiman? His latest book, Anansi Boys, is about primarily non-white characters, but the way he handles it is so subtle that I kind of kept forgetting it while I was reading. I'm sure there's some discussion of it on his blog (http://www.neilgaiman.com/journal/), although of course I couldn't find anything when I went to look just now, apart from a link to this post on someone else's LJ (http://nhw.livejournal.com/557151.html).

Anyway. Not a topic I've got a lot of experience with, but this was the first thing that came into my head, and I thought it was interesting. *shrugs*

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


Well, it's easier to get into the head of the majority, if only because there's so much about us out there--movies, tv shows, books, etc. But yeah, I certainly feel the angst about getting USAian characters an settings right, especially in non-fanfic, but I think what I need to get into my head is that I can but try. :/

*shares woe. also cookies*

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


Thank you! The first one was terribly interesting, and I really liked the second one. (I think I need to tattoo that falling quote onto my forehead or something.)

Also, I have a wee kiddie primer book about African culture, if you want to borrow it? Might be a start.

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


... What? I mean, what? Do we have "LESBIAN!" stamped on our foreheads now and no one told me? o_O

But yes, and even if they manage to mention it the first time gracefully, characters are often then reduced to "I'm gay! Did I mention I'm gay? SO GAY! Because I like guys! Not that I'm ever actually going to kiss one but, GAY!" And now I'm wondering what the race equivalent of Will-and-Grace-syndrome is, if there is one. Hm.

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


Neil was rec'ed in the second link [livejournal.com profile] troubleinchina mentioned up there as someone who does it well, so I may have to check AB out. (Oh woe, etc. Heh.)

I'm not sure if I'd want people to forget/not notice some of my characters are nonwhite, though, although I suppose it's unavoidable in some ways. *ponders*

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


I tried reading LHoD a few years ago and couldn't get into it, but I suppose I should give it a try in English, to be fair.

And thank you! You just gave me something to poke at in regards to Jonathan in Elfstone! Because I know that, and why, Jesse's race in Strange Love is important (because it's what makes her different, and "growing up different in a small town" is what the whole book is about), but I need to figure out people's attitudes towards non-white characters would be in Avenant before I can figure out how much Jonathan's race would matter.

(... And it just occured to me that I never actually mentioned Jonathan being Middle-Eastern-looking in the book at all, apart from a mention of "olive skin," which is disappearing in the rewrite, because ew bad writing. *makes a note of this*)

From: [identity profile] troubleinchina.livejournal.com


I must admit, I never notice that Angelina is black, until later. Or Lavender, I guess, although I'm not sure what race she is. I think it goes into that same thing about Joss - colour blind instead of acknolwedging that you've got a person who isn't white. Cho Chang is only known as oriental because of her name, same with Padma.

From: [identity profile] bibliotech.livejournal.com


Now I want to go through popular books and look for that--any time someone mentions "she was tall and BLACK AND GAY and had brown eyes and was BLACK AND GAY AND A PAGAN and wore red boots and OH BY THE WAY SHE'S STILL BLACK AND GAY AND PAGAN TOO and had on red lipstick." It's like the author's going, "I want to show diversity, but the scene doesn't really call for it...I know! I'll introduce a very minor character and mention that they're a minority! That'll do it! Now back to the plot!"

From: [identity profile] sweetle.livejournal.com


I'm not sure if I'd want people to forget/not notice some of my characters are nonwhite, though, although I suppose it's unavoidable in some ways.

Yeah...I saw it as a problem with me as a reader, though, as much as anything, because my "default" view of characters when I'm reading is usually that they're white unless it explicitly says otherwise (which I realize is stupid, but I can't seem to get rid of it entirely). And in the case of Anansi Boys, it certainly does say otherwise, it just doesn't beat you over the head with it.

From: [identity profile] rawumber.livejournal.com


I think you should write. You have the sensitivity to look past the taken for granted and the Mainstream(tm). It is just a question of ho and what you want to write and some research on the subject.


Not that you'll get it perfect, but hell. Someone writing about the Majority can still mess things up because--

Even without the question of race, everyone is not the same.

If they were we'd all be a stereotype.

Dealing with racial issues during the Immigration debate brought this home to me. Even within the same community, even within a single "unifying" incident such as our walk outs and rallies, there wasn't a single voice.

It's important to be true to your character, take his or her experiences with the Majority and race into account.

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


Yeah, I think in the end, I need to just stop being silly and give it a try, at least. If I can write gay pr0n, I can write about other cultures, dammit! (And really, I already do, so yeah.)

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


Yeah, it's part of the whole "white = default" thing, and I know I do it myself, too, and it annoys me when i catch myself. :/

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


And even with Cho and Padma, there were people who actually didn't realise until the movies that they were asian and Indian. Granted, you can't really cater for a minority of morons, but still. (Oh, HP fandom, so cute, yet so dumb.)

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


*encourages* Hey, it'd give me some good examples of What Not To Do. :D


From: [identity profile] troubleinchina.livejournal.com


I've dated cute but dumb guys. ;) Sorry, random comment, I'm overcaffinated.

I think that discussion linked about Anansi Boys makes an interesting point - we all have our 'default normal'. For us, it's White, and unless someone says "not white", we don't notice. It's not racisim so much as the belief unless told otherwise, people are like us.

From: [identity profile] bibliotech.livejournal.com


I think the most depressing part is that it's become so common that it would be easier to find examples where they don't do this. I'm working on a story now where one of the main characters is black, and no one's mentioned it yet because it just doesn't apply to anything. I keep wondering should I work that in there, but unless someone new shows up and goes, "Hey, you're black! Look, that guy's Jewish!", there's no tactful way that I can find. Maybe it'll come up in a random conversation, that's all I can think of. This "writing" stuff is hard.

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


God, yes! I lucked out a little with my contemporary novel, because the major non-white character is Vietnamese, so I can probably count on her name tipping the readers off, but a) not a guarantee, see also Cho Chang and the Patil sisters, and b) her given name (Jesse) isn't especially Vietnamese, and I don't think her surname's going to show until like a third into the book. And with my fantasy novel, I realised as I was re-reading to editing that the only reference to one of the characters being/looking Arabic/Middle-Eastern is a mention of "olive skin," which is going out in the rewrite because it's just a leetle bit too close to that coffee-with-milk example you mentioned. (Not to mention, in context it's kinda skating the purple prose line, ick.)

This "writing" stuff is hard.

Tell me about it. They need to work on this whole cybernetics thing, so I can just syphon images into people's brain directly instead of having to go through that whole "words" thing.
rsadelle: (Default)

From: [personal profile] rsadelle


[livejournal.com profile] deadbrowalking might be a community to watch. There's also a good list of essential posts in the memories. For your purposes, I highly recommend "Transracial Writing for the Sincere."

From: [identity profile] bubosquared.livejournal.com


Thank you, that's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.
.

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